I'm just throwing this out to you guys because you guys would be honest and true. Im watching a race at Utica Rhome and I don't see a big difference between the mods and the crate motor wise. Can we run crates as mods and do away with the $40,000 dollar motor? Something has to be done. We can't keep going in this direction.

Interesting question Lenny. Utica Rome typically has a very slick surface that can only hold so much horsepower. I think that's why the modifieds don't look that much faster than the crate cars. I really don't have my finger on the pulse of modified racing anymore but I'm pretty sure there are several "big block" tracks around where everyone runs the spec small block because they are faster.

Before I attempt to answer Lenny's question (by the way Lenny, thanks for posting it), I could use a little help with understanding the different engines that guys in the "Modified," "Sportsman," and "Crate" classes run.

I'm pretty technical when it comes to street cars and engine technology from the past 5 decades, but I have no idea what options/combinations guys run in the different big bodied classes today.

A Big Block, A "Big" Small Block, An Aluminum Small Block, a Spec 358, a 602 Crate Engine, and more.... Then you have different engines for Sprint cars (305's, 360's, 410's) which I'm not even looking to address here.

Getting back to modifieds or sportsman, to make it even more confusing I've seen events where the same car, with the same driver, was run in two different divisions on the same night???

I don't want to hijack Lenny's thread here, and I hope that others will respond to the question he asks, but if anyone really understands the many different engine combinations that are allowed in certain divisions, please enlighten me!  Maybe rank them in in the order of least expensive to most expensive.

Anything that helps lower the cost of racing, that is put in place by people who really know... that do not have a monetary gain in mind, but are really doing it for the heath of the sport, should be a good thing, but as we have learned, nothing stays low cost forever as the rules get pushed further and further... And with low car counts being a concern, most tracks won't take a stand and tell someone to leave it on the trailer, take it back to the garage, and bring it back when it's legal.

Back to Lenny's question, I've seen good races with what I think were spec engines... I've seen good races with what I think were Sportsman engines, and I've seen good races with "Crate 602" (which I guess is an off the shelf OEM available dedicated racing engine that's supposed to be relatively low cost... like if anything in racing stays low cost for very long.)

Unfortunately, $40,000 ain't nothing now a days. You want to encourage low cost racing? (I should say "lower cost".....no such thing as low cost racing). Throw a bus load of weight on anything not running a crate. Hell, hook a plow behind 'em if that doesn't work! That should put an end to "checkbook racing".

And as long as we're talking about costs, Semi Trucks, Toter Homes, and Stacker Trailers never made anyone run quicker or faster!

I don't know what the speed, or lap times of the the mid 60s into the 70s (my favorite racing period) were as compared to today.  But I think one's perception of watching a bunch of modifieds as compared to watching crates. Its relative.  I researched Fonda Speedway lap times from the 1970s since Fonda is still in operation today.  I found that the modifeds were doing laps of 22 sec. back in the 70s, while the crates are currently touring Fonda at about 20.5 sec. a lap.  The modifieds are currently averaging laps of 18 sec.  If crate motors were used for the modifieds, I think the only difference (modifeds vs. crate) you could physically see was the level of driving talent.  The lap times being a tad slower would not deter the level of competition.  Maybe with "actual" crate modifieds as the top division, the sport wouldn't have to depend so much on sponsorship.  It still gets me how modifed features are paying about $ 3000 to win and you need a $ 25,000 (probably more) motor to compete. Just my opinion.  Scott Ely

Everything is expensive. https://www.etsy.com/listing/807960743/tiddledy-winks-table-game-collectible>

Scott back then our cars were on top of the track compared to todays cars..No aero, todays chassis and down force probably worth couple seconds.., not sure if tires are better today? Our motors in those days would run most of the season or longer because LESS BITE....That has made racing higher costs today.. My thoughts HtH

Hey Caddy you are correct...Walk down pit road and find even a sportsman car with a flat bed or open trailer...The $$$ are out there you just hope you are lucky to get some..HtH

I use to love racing. Had all the engines. Built most of them myself. 301cu in , 339 injected , 427 injected, 454 carbureted . Cost finally ended it all. So we got (cheap crate motors) for my two sons to race, only to get passed by all the cheater ones out there. This has been out there ever since I raced. Sad for racing, and it’s never going to change.

So let me start by saying that it seems like every time someone claims they're going to save you money, they cost you money. I absolutely believe there's a need for a cheaper entry level division and crates are probably a necessary evil but what's happened is you have guys I like to call "professional crate racers" coming in, begging for higher paying races for crates and then here comes the guys insisting on cheating them, requiring hours of tech afterward. Then, what do the couple hundred guys that currently own oh maybe a quarter million dollars of engines? Put em in the corner to collect dust? The Wegner spec engine seems like a decent deal but then everyone has all their eggs in one basket. 

You want big blocks, run big blocks. You want spec 358's so be it. No matter what, racing is always gonna be expensive, no way around it.

And one more thing...you tell the top modified guys they're gonna run crates, they'll be in late models or sprint cars before you can snap your fingers. Every one of them I've ever spoken to about it has told me they have no interest in going backwards.

Well said John. I raced Crates and enjoyed the money saving aspect.  Kept me racing. Without the 602 I would not have raced because I was done spending money to keep up or stay ahead.  The 602 I raced cost $3400 in 2007.  I understand it is now $8400 for the same. The engine builders killed the crate engine by cheating them up.  They did this mostly because that was a whole sector they could not make money with. 

• 1950 an engine was $350. 
• 1960 an engine was $650.  
• 1970 an engine was $1,500. 
• 1980 an engine was $8,500.  
• 1990 an engine was $16,000. 
• 2000 an engine was $24,000.   
• 2010 $36,000.
• 2020 $40,000.

"........has told me they have no interest in going backward". I forgot about the time when Winston Cup went from Big Blocks to the little 358's and all the Heavy Hitters quit and went unlimited snowmobile racing! Thinking that the Hot Shoes are gonna run where the big purses are. If Sprints and Late Models were big in NJ, NY, and DE, and paid like the Mod touring shows, they would be there full time already. Besides, the top drivers don't pay the bills......the car owners do. 

At Wall wasn’t the crowd affected if the regular mods weren’t on the bill?

I build a few 305sprint car engines they have very fair rules . Crank must be 48 lbs minimum only 5700 rod lengths low lift flat tappet cams stock diameter valve springs . Everyone has the same heads  1.5 rockers in my opinion very fair and equal rules it can be done engines have to be tecked while being assembled. 

Then maybe you should go ask them yourself. Modified racing should be just that, not Mexican built junk.

I agree John they are alot of stuff Chevy could not put in cars...They do make decent street motors for hot rods...That was Chevys plan anyway...   You have to spend alot of money for a good one that passes tech...Not off a pallet at the Chevy store...I better quit now...HtH

I HAVE spoken to them. For years, I worked in the pits and fabricated their cars  Matter of fact, I've also spoken to a lot of folks who are much more important than those Top Drivers. That's the people who plunk down their hard earned $20, week in and week out, to see these guys live out their glory days. Remember this conversation! Remember it when you read the upcoming posts bemoaning "Why Are Car Counts So Down"? Where Have All The Modifieds Gone"? I'm a betting man, and I bet that you don't want to see a weekly feature with as many cars as a current heat race! Well, we're sure as shootin' heading in that direction. Why? IT'S COST. Yup, you're always gonna have the guy who takes his disposable $$$ and buys a race team instead of a Viking Sportfisherman. But how many of those rare individuals are hanging around your local bullring? Three? Four? After that, what have you got? A couple of fella's pitching in to run a competitive car. Some guy who forgoes the family summer vacation, AGAIN, so he can make it to the track. That's the backbone of the sport! Without those fella's, you don't have a Saturday Night, "Mexican Junk" or otherwise!

If you want to run crates its like John says spend all nite in Tech and hope your smarter than they are.. We did that with pavement nascar LM... Heads off, measuring the intakes, Take the motor out and weigh the crank, Checking valve springs, Checking for Titatium parts...We did this alot of nites at Hickory Speedway and left with our $500 Big Money Win...Our race was usaually over about 9pm and we were leaving the track about midnite to try and make Hooters..We would spend every nite the following week just to get it back ready to go again....Crates suck cause there is so much cheating with them and the track needs Tech guys smart enough and honest enough to be there half the nite..Then you get the money guy that buys 6 new motors and dynos them, keeps the good and sells the bad ones.. Believe me crates are for rookies and nothing more.. Just my 2 cents...HtH  

No way John unless my car weighed 1500lbs and the rest were 2400..And i would probably break it before race was over... You know me I like HP..Gotta steer it with the gas pedal...

Are there any parts on any of the classes that are really stock   Are 602 stock ,Spec motor parts stock ?   Back in the day most blocks and heads were stock at least in 1974 

Question:

Is there as wide a variety of engine offerings/combinations in local asphalt racing (example Wall Stadium) as there is for Modifieds and Sportsman that race on dirt?

What do the sportsman run at Wall (cubic inch limit?, 2BBL or 4 BBL?, specific heads?)

What about the modifieds?  I see names like Morgantini, Boardwick on hoods, but honestly, I have no idea what is under the hood other than a lot of $$$'s!

What is the main difference (besides for $'s) under the hood of a "Tour Modified" versus an engine that someone would run in the modified division on a regular Saturday night at Wall?

Thanks in advance for those who know about this stuff.

It really comes down to the engine builders cheating them up. I agree with John, "would you drive one?"  that was my attitude before I drove one. Never!, but I did and found a nice place in racing where it was affordable and was able to do it a few more years.

On dirt, the 40 Crates signed in the back gate, pays a good part of the Modified purse, so yes you need them. It goes back to the cheating engine builders who are proud of "ruining" a divison. We had four years at Wall with very little cheating, GM seals, until the track opened up the freshening rules and who could do it. I pushed that if you refreshed, you added 350 pound to the car. The track went with 100 pounds , so it made it worth cheating for the 100 pounds. Our problem was that the promoters son was one of the biggest cheaters.  How do you cure that?

I made the mistake of freshening my engine after three years and 1900 laps, but used all the required GM parts and the refresh cost $3300. Should have bought a new one for $3400. The freshened engine was a tenth slower.

Interesting question. Unless all the tracks and promoters get together. To make a serious effort to change body rules and slowly phase out engine combos. So the cars can't hook up like they currently do. I don't think there is any way to save racing.

 What is interesting is that Grandview draws enough modifieds and sportsman to require consi's sending cars home. While last year, Bridgeport had fewer than 20 Modifieds mid-summer, and New Egypt had every Modified qualified. Even with New Egypt closed. Things don't look much better this year. 

Just looking at the Spec Wegner Dirt Big Block motor, it still costs close to 30 Grand. Big Block 

 The Small  Block motor costs close to 20Grand. DIRT Car Small Block   

GM 602's cost is over 8 grand, mentioned in another post. 

As a fan in the stands nowadays. Whether they run crates or not. It does not matter to me as long as the racing is entertaining. A decent show will get my money, a bad show won't. Racers are their own worst enemy. 

Tracks make money on the 602 crate division. Modifieds draw fans. The two divisions need each other. I have seen the small block modified crates run and win at $20,000.00 per engine. Tracks need to encourage crate engines to keep the sport alive. Reduced weight limits being slowly implemented over several years would allow owners an opportunity to stay competitive and transition to small block crates.    

Thank you for everyone who gave this thread some thought and for adding to it.

3Wide